Re: House Rules

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Vardaen
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Re: House Rules

Post by Vardaen » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:27 pm

METAMAGIC and Spontaneous Casters

From the SRD
SRD wrote: Sorcerers and Bards
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Bitom and I both agree that this rule kinda stinks. I have known about it, and always ignored it. Offically, in the vWorld games I'm running this rule is repealed. Meaning that Sorcerers and Bards (and others) can apply Metamagic as no further time cost. Since you've spent a Feat on it, I don't wish to further penalize those with already low casting options.

The rule however for clerics or druids, spontaneously converting a spell and applying a metamagic feat still applies. Since you already are making one change to a spell slot, it makes sense another further change causes some time issues. The rule stands as
SRD wrote:Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats
A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." - Gandalf
J.R.R. Tolkien, Council of Elrond, The Fellowship of the Ring

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Re: House Rules

Post by od » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:01 am

I have to disagree with this change to the rules, metamagic feats are significantly better for spontaneous casters, and it is for this reason that they pay the casting time penalty.

A silenced wizard is useless, a silenced sorcerer with the right feat isn't.

A bound wizard is useless, a bound sorcerer with the right fee isn't.

The list goes on, those are just the easy examples. But in short meta-magic is better for spontaneous casters. So I don't understand why they shouldn't have an extra penalty to rebalance?

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Re: House Rules

Post by od » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:10 pm

I spoke to Bitom a little more...the penalty is a bit harsh. I'd suggest that the penalty be revised to "Takes a move action" or takes a second standard action.

The equivalent psionic feats require expending psionic focus which basically requires a standard or move action be spent ahead of time.

I think one of the books has rules for "Arcane focus" but I don't think that's necessary.

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Re: House Rules

Post by Bitom » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:11 pm

I sortof agree with both sides here. It's better balance to have SOME penalty, but upping everything to a full round is pretty harsh.

maybe upping it one step? (Instant/free to a move action, standard to a full attack equivilant (can't take a move action)

Note also that there is a variant where the sorcerer doesn't get a familiar, but gets to cast metamagic for without time enhancement.

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Re: House Rules

Post by Vardaen » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:48 pm

Part of my take on this was that Wizard get fee MetaMagic Feats at certain levels, while Sorcerers have to spend their feats to get them. So right there the Wizard is ahead of the Sorcerer.

However I can see that it does make a Sorcerer a bit more potent, but still they remain limited as having only so many to pick from.

Perhaps the idea that it raises the casting time 1 "level" is a good idea. I really dislike the idea of a Sorcerer taking a full round to use one of their feats they had to pay for during level up, loose the higher spell slot and begin limited to a only have a few optiosn of spells to start with.

Free Action --> Swift Action
Swift Action --> Move Action
Move Action --> Standard Action
Standard Action --> Full Attack Action


However after re reading what they say about Full Round Action and 1 Round Action, perhaps we just screwed this up.
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
A Full Attack is a Full Round action...

So really what they are saying is your normal spells that take Standard Action would take up that extra Move action you might have. You could still 5ft step but that's it. Now that I realize thisis the case, leaving the rule as is makes sense to me.
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Re: House Rules

Post by Bitom » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:56 pm

the key is this line:
It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
That, to me is the big difference between a 1 round spell and a full attack. with a 1 round spell, your target may be dead or gone before you cast the spell.

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Re: House Rules

Post by Trogdor » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:17 pm

There's another big issue (and this is why my AoI character worked very hard to be able to cast his summon spells as a standard action). According to the rules in the SRD, the spell isn't finished until just before your next action. So during that whole time you're vulnerable to having your spellcasting disrupted, potentially causing you to lose the whole thing. A variety of things like attacks, disrupting spells, etc., have the potential to nip the whole spell in the bud.

That's also important for me in Maha, where summoning an Astral Construct is a full round action.

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Re: House Rules

Post by od » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:33 pm

Full round spells are different, they resolve at the beginning of your next action. The primary reason for this is concentration checks. A full round spell gives opponents a full round to try to kill or disrupt the caster. Monster summoning is such a spell, if you get hit during the round of casting you need to make a concentration check or the spell might fail.

Generally I've always thought it took the round to "summon and weave" the magic. So you'd target it at the end.

Increasing 1 step would still put most spells (standard actions) as full round actions...

I think the move action is still the fairest thing, perhaps leaning a bit in favor of sorcerers.

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Re: House Rules

Post by Bitom » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:37 pm

One big thing that I think we've been doing wrong is determining the target at the time the casting begins instead of when the casting ends. This is the difference between a full-round spell being potentially disruptable and being totally worthless.

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Re: House Rules

Post by Bitom » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:40 pm

I've moved this discussion to this forum so that people other than Vworld GM's and Trogdor can participate in it. When the Vworld GM's agree on a rule, that rule will be posted back to the Vworld house rules thread.

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