RANDOM HISTORY CHATTER.

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Palamon
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RANDOM HISTORY CHATTER.

Post by Palamon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:51 am

Let's begin by saying this:

This is not permanent! These are just ideas being tossed around, particularly in this thread!

That having been said, I have had some thoughts lately regarding the role of Empires in this world, and the role of the immortals as well.

What if the immortals, akin "Faerie" in Celtic mythology, were actually very similar to humans, except of course immortal? There were good ones, and bad ones, and they were ultimately destroyed millenia ago, with only a trace here and there (such as the Grey Tower) still remaining as proof of their existence. Well, what if also they weren't entirely destroyed, but were reduced in number to such a degree, or for some reason slept, I dunno, but for whatever reason they have no direct bearing on the world today, and haven't throughout human history.

The "Faerie" awaken during the years prior to the years of human development, and subtly influence the humans. On one side are those who wish humanity well, and on the others there are those who long to reconquer the world as they had many many millenia ago.

Itracus Invictus' long lifespan could be explained by this: thoguh he does not know it, he is actually a half-breed, and though his early development was identical to a human's, he is in fact immortal - or very near to it. In SR, I had half-elves live around 1000 years, which works.

We can have heroes and villains be from this race throughout history; they are NOT like the Maia in Middle-earth; they CAN be killed. They are not supremely powerful. They're just immortal, and have a bit of magic. And they're constantly working behind the scenes. Thoughts?

Neon
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Post by Neon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:18 pm

I like the basic outline. Questions that come to my mind have to do with the origins and hence the nature of these immortals and then their distiguishing features and advantages over normal humans.

If they came to life before the Human race came into being, are they what humans should have been, but for some reason aren't? Meaning the humans are the poor immitations of the immortals? Why would the creator bother with humanity after making something like a race of Immortals? Or perhaps is it the case that the creator god(s) meant for humans to be as they are with their flaws and faults to suit the "Grand Design", but one of the other gods jumped the gun in creation and took the "blue prints" for humanity and made the immortals thinking in pride to go the creator(s) one better?

I sorta like the second idea better, but both are worth considering. This difference in nature should influence the long-term relationship between the Immortals and the Humans and play a role in both instances where they've cooperated and where they've come in to conflict, especially where the Immortals were nearly destroyed. If it is the case that the immortals are sort of an unintended departure from the grand design, we'd need a theory about why the creator(s) allows them to continue to exist and what their relationship is to the Gods and what it ideally should be towards humanity. i.e. Have the creator(s) bless them and give them a role in the Grand Design or curse them to destroy them, but then change the verdict and allow them some chance to earn redemption by helping humanity? Maybe split the idea so that some immortals choose to side with the creator(s) and some are cursed/damned like the "angels that sided with Satan"? Lotsa different choices here but it's worth ironing out in order to have a coherent cosmology and to give some more underlying structure to the flow of history.

In terms of distinguishing characteristics, it sounds like we know that they do not age or die from age (or disease?) and are generally more beautiful and more intelligent (if not more wise) than normal humans and that they have some sort of capacity to either use some set of psychic skills or to tap into and manipulate an existing source of natural power (however it is that you want to define the nature of "magick"). But how would you know one to look at one? Would you simply just "feel" that they're unnaturally or supernaturally different? Do they have sort of that vibrant and preturnatural beauty that Anne Rice likes to ascribe to vampires?

I should think that to balance the advantages they have over humans, there would be both a definate difference in both look and feel - making it harder for them to walk among normal humans undetected and making it necessary for them to 'mask' themselves somehow. I think we'd also want to think up other disadvantages that they have in relationship to humanity. If they had none, then it would be pretty difficult for humans to have nearly wiped them out.

Palamon
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Post by Palamon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:45 pm

Got this from Neon today, and thought I should share. He's got some really good ideas kicking around here, and I think many of them can be used nicely. I'm heading to San Antonio right now, and I'll post my thoughts when I get back tomorrow. (just edited it because the carriage returns were really irritating)

Heya Josh,

Here's some stream-of-conciousness imagination stuff to sorta kick-start the process: Your Carthage analog is a city state called Rylos (combines Greek and Phonecian cultural elements). Never a serious land-power (all its ground troops were levies from colonies), the island city-state of Rylos developed an empire through far-flung trade and then built a navy to protect it with the great streams of wealth brought in from its colonies. Pressure from encroaching Rylosian trade and political and naval power was a major impetus for the Durnalian states to band together. The Durnalians couldn't be conquered by the Rylosians because Durnalian land forces (infantry, archers, cavalry, etc.) were well trained and highly effective once united under a single commanding general (need a name I guess, Flavius Maximius Belisarius or something). The less cohesive and lighter armed Rylosian troops were chronically beaten in battle after battle. Eventually, the Durnalians built a Navy from scratch and slowly rose to challenge the Rylosians in a series of wars, eventually attacking and destroying Rylos itself. I think we can sort of figure that there are two main sources of enmity between Durnalia and Rylos. As mentioned above, Durnalia is at first the underdog, trying to scrape out a place in the sun under the dominating shadow of Rylos. I think you can easily make the second source a religious difference: The Rylosians, perhaps only in part, worshiped "dark gods" and engaged in abhorrent practices like human(child)sacrifice and grizzly stuff like that.

Now as to Bablyon. I sorta like the name Ashkar. It sounds nicely ancient near-eastern. You can imagine someone waxing poetic about the "The purple spires and many-stepped temples of ancient Ashkar" or something like that. As a quasi-mythic place, we can think of Ashkar as the source of many sort of dangerous or potentially powerful things like sorcery, astrology, magick, astronomy, and advanced sciences and technologies that are now lost or hidden awaiting rediscovery. Maybe have this most ancient of civilizations destroyed in a semi-mythical war between the adherents of dark gods and the partisans of the "old gods" that then become the "Holy Family" later on. (If I recall the history ideas correctly.)

Also, I'm still thinking about the Britannic Isles, thing. I'm pretty happy with the names of the five tribes: The Cael, the Danar, the Albren, the Skarn, and the Yori. I think the name Arcturus as the title of their high king is also cool: meaning great bear - hearkens back to historical basis for the King Arthur legends. Seems like we might want to weave in to the history of this place some Rylosian influence (after all they had a far-flung empire of trade) and perhaps have the island occupied by the Durnalians for a short period. Hence the Latin-sounding title of Arcturus. I think that it would be cool to have maybe part of the population be sorta "Durnalized" and have another portion adhere to older tribal culture that is rooted in a druidic sort of religion. My sorta evolving sense is that maybe we think of this island as having been originally inhabited by the "fair folk" you mentioned until it was invaded by a tribe from the main-land (Maybe one of Rondo's tribes) In the face of the new comers, the Fair folk withdraw to the further west of the two Islands (the Ireland analog) making it a sort of forbidden place of mystery and dark rumor. Once this tribe takes over the larger of the two islands, it fragments into the current five parts, each perhaps named for the sons of the last Chieftain of the previously united tribe. If there is an understanding of a brief Durnalian overlordship, you might think of having the royal family of the high-king being a transplanted and now partially inter-married bunch of noble or royal Durnalians.

Anyway, there are some rambling thoughts for now. More later.

Cheers,

Andy
Last edited by Palamon on Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Neon
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Post by Neon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:40 pm

For a slightly expanded treatment of the "britannic isles" idea look at the "Edge of the World" topic.

Cheers,

Neon

Taliesin
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Fair Folk a go-go

Post by Taliesin » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:30 pm

Well, I'm back after a lovely weekend and I have a lot of thoughts on a lot of things. The first thing I want to do here is address this issue of the Fair Folk / immortals / faerie / whatever.

Let me state that these are simply my views going forward. They're not rules I want everyone to adopt-- rather, they are discussion points. It's become essential to toss them out into the popular dialogue now, though, for one reason: I don't want to strictly define what the Fair Folk are yet.

I'd like for the evolving history itself to define them. Where do they come into the tales? How do they affect the histories? I ask that we allow that to tell us who they are, and not just write it in stone for their own sake. Let's give them time to develop organically as part of this world.

Personally, I don't see the "Fair Folk" as strictly immortal; I see them as a more 'highly evolved' strain of humanity, a race that mastered the more esotric capabilities of the spirit in prehistoric times. They have more control over their physical, mental, and spiritual abilities and as a result of this they live to ages unimaginable by the rest of humanity... but they're not a thing apart.

I would also add the following points:

* They would hold themselves separate from the rest of humanity, and yet remain very much a part of it.

* They are closer to "the gods" and some of their wisest and most benevolent folk have used that deeper knowledge of the divine and mystical to try and steer the less-enlightened peoples towards a higher destiny.

* Some of their more malevolent types have worked to do just the opposite.

* They don't have any outright "kingdoms" or nations-- not anymore. Both Neon and I are already approaching them from a pseudo-Britannic point of view, and I like that... they're still out there, but nobody is really sure where.

* Where they do interact with typical humanity is in the more remote lands and times. For whatever reason, they will rarely interfere directly with the great geopolitical currents. (I would say that they lack the force to do so on a large scale, so they focus on individuals and heroes who can forward their aims.) An example of this is Prince (later High King) Tarin's legendary pact with the Fair Folk that lent his War of Restoration much of its impetus.
Rich


Palamon
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The Immortals: a possible origin

Post by Palamon » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:19 am

Andy and I were talking on El the other day, and I came up with a rather new concept for immortals: they are in fact human. So I state once now, and will restate: these are not true immortals. They live for a very, very, very long time (often over a thousand years) but they are not immortal.

In addition, I began thinking about the "ancient Babylon" concept, the Tower of Babel, the Grey Tower of Editia, the Philosophers' Society and its origins, and how all this would work together in this world's pre-history, and indeed throughout its history.

Ashkar and the World Before Time
Several thousand years ago (yes, several thousand, even though Durnalia, the oldest surviving civilization is only 2500, including the age of city-states, and Rylos only predated it by 500 years or so) humanity had created a quasi-utopian society in Ashkar. Their pursuits of "greater knowledge" were to the point where they had learned how to expand human life to over a thousand years, and they were master architects and builders. At first the Ashkaris began building cities throughout the world, but they were always being attacked by the other human tribes. The Ashkaris could have very easily subjected the humans to their domination, but they forebore, and were instead content to help these people. But the people didn't want help in most places. So the Ashkari withdrew, and left them to their own devices.

Ancient Ashkar was a vast land stretching east from the Middle Sea to the Great Ocean, but its capital was in a place analogous to Babylon.

Ashkaris saw the other humans of the world as inferior to themselves, and did not associate with them, shutting them out from their cities and lands through "magicks" which masked the Ashkari lands as a great desert, though often a "madman" would return to his homeland with outrageous stories of shining cities of stone.

The Fall of Ashkar
Then, of course, it happened. The Ashkari King sought to become a God, and the Gods punished him for it in a very Tower of Babel type way. All their vast, fertile lands were reduced to the desert they pretended to be. Ashkar fell, silently to the outside world. Its utterly ruined cities are buried under an ocean of sand (like the Atlantis in the desert idea?), all save that of "Babel" itself. Its stones were of such incredible size that when the winds shift properly in the Ashkari desert, it is possible to make out the great stone building blocks as they collapsed upon each other.

The survivors of Ashkar were very, very, very few. And some didn't even know they were Ashkaris at all. During the millenia of Ashkarian existence, there were always those who for whatever reason left their people.

Some fled from Ashkar, fearing the fate which ultimately befell it - Ashkari culture was very firmly rooted in the belief of ultimate doom. Many of these simply took up a very 'Elvish' lifestyle, and made an oath not to tell their offspring of the true nature of their people.

Others travelled the world nomadically, sharing SOME of their greater knowledge of the universe to those who would listen. Many of these went to the land that would become Durnalia, where they had once began to build a city, but left it unfinished. Only one, lesser tower had been built (the Editian Grey Tower), and it still lacked the "finishing touches".

Those who wished to one day regain the power they had, and this time rule the world (classic bad guy fashion) went to Rylos, and taught them a thing or two about power... they kept the knowledge they shared to a minimum, lest they be overpowered, but they gave the Rylosians a distinct edge for over a thousand years. Ironically, the Rylosians would have been able to completely dominate the entire world had not one of their first Kings been killed. That King was an Ashkari descendant, very powerful, and near immortal. But the Ashkaris' teachings had inspired those beneath him that they, too could become immortal. So they killed him, ate his heart, drank his blood, etc. And became powerful, true, but Rylos never had the unity under one certain King that would have allowed it to conquer the world.

Since the earliest years, the descendents of Ashkar (even those who don't know that's what they are) have receded into the world, working more and more subtly especially as the "normal" humans became more and more powerful. When they worked more openly, the results were often spectacular. If the truth were to be told, which it never will, Itracus Invictus was the son of a Durnalian woman ... and an Ashkarian.

Ashkar's Influence Today
Most important of all influence is this: Ashkarians either don't know they are Ashkarians, or don't want anybody else to know they are. Those that don't know who they are seem supernatural to anybody who meets them at all times. Those who do know are able to channel this, and as such can seem like 'Fair Folk', or as just another Tom, Dick, or Harry.

Second, they are not immortal after all. I changed my mind. So let me repeat: THEY ARE NOT IMMORTAL! They live for a long-ass time, often over a thousand years. But they are not immortal. As such, no Ashkarian today knows another one from "back in the day." There are clans of Ashkarians throughout the world, and they intermarry from time to time, but ancient laws, to which even the "bad guys" almost always adhere, have kept the race from growing greatly.

The grand history of Ashkar is not overly important to the world, but suffice to say they created only one structure in the modern world: the Grey Tower. Few serious historians today argue that the Grey Tower of Editia is anything other than Ashkari in design, but there are no records surviving of Ashkari influence in the area. Durnalian ancestry being traced back to Ashkar is a popular myth among the 'illuminati' of Durnalia, but completely unproven.

This semi-immortal race has moved in mysterious ways throughout human history, and ironically is entirely human itself, just with "adaptations." Their intermarriages with humanity always have this following result: if the mother is Ashkari, the child will be as well. If the mother is human, the child will be human. The women will RARELY take a "mortal" husband or lover, but one exception breaks the rule, and it just so happens that Itracus Invictus was born the son of a marriage between a powerful Durnalian noble.... and an Ashkarian woman.

So that's the gist of it, folks. I really like the idea now that I've taken some time to flesh it out. We can adapt the amount of Ashkarian influence throughout the world on a case-by-case basis, but I think this gives a good base we can work with.[/b]

Dins
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Post by Dins » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:09 am

Very nice, guys! Recalls me back to the days of European mythology class and the Tuatha de Dannan -- except now with a Babylonian kick? Very nice.

I'd like to reflect back on something that Rich brought up about letting these folk tell their own story as they emerge through myth, legend, and rumor: namely, how do they appear to current-day Durnalians? How much stock does your average Durnalian put in them, past and present?
Ashkarians either don't know they are Ashkarians, or don't want anybody else to know they are.
How do people know about them at all? Through their architecture -- the huge building stones in the desert, for example? Sure. Through a mythology that considers them gods for their longevity and former influence over world affairs? Potentially. But I'm more inclined toward option c: Through a folk-lore tradition wherein some believe in their present existence and others -- the rationalists, perhaps -- do not.

see a really fun science v. religionesque debate emerging here, between those who point to the evidence and say, "Hah, they existed, and they still do!" (and the paranoid types who add to that, "And they're going to take over the world and kill us all! Aaagh!" -- perhaps a cult that commits mass-suicide at some point in history? :wink:), and those who point to the evidence and say, "You fools; they existed, but they don't anymore. Anyone who believes in stories about them living today believes in old wives' tales." Such a belief could possibly throw another sect -- a sect of folk-tale-believers -- into that religion/philosophy pot, too.

Just a few thoughts.

Dins

Taliesin
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Post by Taliesin » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:37 pm

Interesting stuff. You guys have clearly put a lot of thought into it, so I can roll with that. Some thoughts on the 'Fair Folk' of the northwest, however, or at the very least those who continue to dip their finger in the steaming mug of Tiarnan affairs, and stir....

1) The people known as the Fair Folk would have broken off early from the Ashkari proper-- certainly prior to the ruin of that civilization.

2) Nobody flies off three-thousand miles away without a darn good reason. I would prefer, however, that the reason for the flight of the Fair Folk be left up to me to develop (with input when necessary) as the growing history dictates. This is not something I want myself (or anyone else) to make an arbitrary decision on. It's like I said-- I want this to grow organically. :)

3) That said, I would present my Fair Folk as a possible candidate for having built the Grey Tower. As in: They fled Ashkar, started to work on the Grey Tower, and suddenly realized that it still wasn't far enough from their nassssty cousinses and ran away again, this time over the Green Mountains.

On an unrelated note... Josh, your hard-and-fast law of Ashkarian genetics would make my High King Barin an 'immortal', which he most certainly wasn't-- but his Mum most certainly was. Can we make this 'rule' less ironclad?
Rich


Palamon
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The Myth of Ashkar

Post by Palamon » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:26 pm

Wow, lots to reply to. Excellent.

First, to Dins. The Ashkari people are to modern-day folks a mystery for the most part. They existed. They built things. They were once great. But they're dead now, because they were too vain. Or something. There is no "logical" reason to believe that they would still be alive; there is no "logical" reason to believe that they were once immortal or anything other than ordinary humans. So they are obviously gone, right?

Some ancient scrolls have been discovered which tell of the story of the lifespan of the Ashkari, but few people would put much stock in it, at least until the rule of Itracus Invictus. At that point, some wise men DID begin to wonder if he was, in fact, of Ashkari descent. But the VAST majority believed otherwise; that he was at the very least blessed by, and perhaps descended from, the Gods. In higher circles of learning there would be suspicion that there are more Ashkaris in the world, secretly operating. I think this would be a fun secret society to be a part of. But, for the absolute extreme majority of Durnalians, they were just another civilization, once great. Some would argue that they were once ever greater than Durnalia; the tales from millenia ago regarding "shining cities past the desert" still do exist. But, those people who even KNOW about the stories regarding the shining cities would be in the elite of society in terms of education and learning.

Ashkar today, the region, is a desert. It is so vast and so expansive that the Durnalians consider it the edge of the world. Or... is it? There are secrets in that desert that have been discovered, and there are secrets that have not, and may never be. Some few who have gotten lost in the Ashkari desert on a journey south to the Rylosian shores (it's by far the fastest way by land) and have actually returned to civilization tell tales of plush oases, and hazy far-off towers seen while wandering. Most people discard these stories as the result of heat sickness, but many still wonder. And every now and then, a group will set off for Ashkar and the legendary Sea Beyond the Sands.

Where do people get crazy ideas, then? A lot of it has to do with the Durnalian form of education. The Society trains tutors for wealthy Durnalian families, and even trains teachers for larger schools in the areas where a family may not be able to afford a teacher, but the village can. (like the difference between a group lesson and a private lesson) And part of what it teaches is History, and it has for millenia taught of the lessons to be learned from ancient Ashkar. Clergy, too, will often use Ashkar in their sermons and rantings and ravings. So in Durnalia, it remains at least a popular myth.

Palamon
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Post by Palamon » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:50 pm

OK, regarding Rich's post:
1) The people known as the Fair Folk would have broken off early from the Ashkari proper-- certainly prior to the ruin of that civilization.

2) Nobody flies off three-thousand miles away without a darn good reason. I would prefer, however, that the reason for the flight of the Fair Folk be left up to me to develop (with input when necessary) as the growing history dictates. This is not something I want myself (or anyone else) to make an arbitrary decision on. It's like I said-- I want this to grow organically.
Both sound good. The history of Ashkar is as long as we need it to be, really. They coexisted with humanity, and did not interfere TOO much.
3) That said, I would present my Fair Folk as a possible candidate for having built the Grey Tower. As in: They fled Ashkar, started to work on the Grey Tower, and suddenly realized that it still wasn't far enough from their nassssty cousinses and ran away again, this time over the Green Mountains.
Why did they build it, and why didn't they build others? Seems if you want to flee, you don't want the people to find you. And building 700 foot towers doesn't accomplish that very well. ;)

I have been having second thoughts regarding this immortal race. Perhaps the Ashkari don't have a monopoly on longevity.... perhaps they were copying from someone else? Maybe even stealing from them? Someone more 'pure'? I really didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench into anybody's creative gears here with the Ashkar thing. But I also didn't want to have another case of the Elves.

Rich, on your unrelated note that's very related: having the women give birth to the long-lived people was a consideration to reduce two things: inbreeding (so they could marry outside their little area) and population growth. Also, how did King Barin die? In battle or of old age?

I also am considering a race of nonhumans in addition........ I dunno. Need some serious time to think about it. This is the hardest part, adding the supernatural in a cohesive and sensible way. See, if you have true immortals, you have to have a reason they aren't around today. And then you wind up building a history way longer than you intended, and it winds up looking a lot like what's already been done.

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