Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

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TetNak
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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by TetNak » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:07 am

Shurijo wrote:
TetNak wrote: only Lucas didn't do anything that stupid
midichlorians

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Gungans

All the edits to the originals to add Gungans and such



TetNak wrote: Luke's character completely ruined.
I found it totally possible. Luke was a farm boy who never did much/anything on his own. Blow up the death star? He couldn't have done it without Han/Chewie. Everytime Luke did something great in originals, it was because someone else helped him (and/or died helping/saving him). He became a legend because that's what everyone wanted him to be, not because he did great things. He didn't even kill the emperor, Vader did that. Becoming old and disillusioned with the pressure of being the legend/Jedi hero wasn't something a farm boy could handle. He didn't exactly have the best teacher either, Obi-Wan showed him a few tricks then died. Pretty much the same thing Luke did with Rey. He failed the students. He knew he failed the students. The story was basically his coming to terms with failure and restarting a dying rebellion. I felt Luke's story was probably the best and easiest to relate/figure out. (as long as you ignore EU which I do).

TetNak wrote:
Snoke killed without any explanation of who/what he is?
A bit disappointed, too. But remember, when the Emperor died in originals, we had no idea who/what/how he become Emperor. Lucas did a entire backstory in prequels for that.
Gungans were stupid, sure, but not in the same way as Leia pulling herself out of space with special effects that I could also do with MovieMaker.
Gungans were the elements for children. Midiclorions are also dumb but literally had no effect on anything. It was just dumb technobabble you would hear in any Star Trek episode.
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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by Shurijo » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:36 pm

I think you guys are taking Star Wars way toooo serious.

Remember this entire story (both new and OT) is about a young, eager, orphan sorcerer apprentice wielding a magical laser sword with a wacky, old, and not that great teacher/mentor sorcerer who's friends with Bigfoot and kermit the frog flying a spaceship in a galaxy far, far away. And don't forget the teddy bears, fish, and upside down trash cans that talk and fight using laser guns, spears, and rocks.

It's a lighthearted action, adventure fantasy movie. There's nothing ground breaking.

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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by ManWithDoor » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:31 am

While fair enough, it doesn't have to be cheesy or campy to be good or bad. As objectively terrible as it is, I really enjoy the 1966 Batman movie. Total silly camp, and it embraces it. Perhaps you're right that I'm expecting more from Star Wars than I really should.

But ... I want a well crafted story. I'm totally an amateur when it comes to crafting a story, so I'm not saying anything I write is perfect or anything. But I see what cinema can be. I've seen the masterpieces of cinematography and tone that you can get in Blade Runner 2049. Or heart-wrenching character drama in Inside Out. If you're going to make a silly camp movie, great! I'll enjoy it for what it is (by the way, the new Jumanji movie is damn hilarious). I just expect more from Star Wars, especially with the advertising of The Last Jedi as philosophical and dramatic.
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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by silverfoxdmt73 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:03 pm

ManWithDoor wrote:I'm completely in agreement with Vardaen and TetNak. I think the reason I was so disappointed is because there was some really good potential there, but they never built upon it. Or built upon it so little, it just served to frustrate me all the more.
1) Poe's Plot: Nothing he did ever mattered.
- That 'bombing run' in the beginning? It succeeded, but that didn't matter because they had another giant flagship up their butts in 5 minutes. If it hadn't succeeded, it wouldn't have mattered because the bombers would have run out of gas like everything else.
- The Mutiny? Only happened because the Admiral was a moron. It wasn't a character development moment ("you need to be more thoughtful, rather than always going by instinct, skill, and giant balls"). It was just stupid.
- Abandoning the Charge. Stupid. Why? What sign was there that they couldn't pull it off (even if it ended with their deaths)? It wasn't obviously a lost cause. And if this was supposed to be the culmination of his character development (maybe even a negative one, where he's doubting himself), we didn't see any of it, so it came off as counter to his character, and dumb.

2) Luke & Rey:
- Listening to Luke explain why 'the Jedi had to die' was my favorite ... 2 minutes of the film? I wanted to hear his reasoning, his philosophy. My friends and I have had plenty of discussions on the failings of the Jedi (both the Order and the philosophy), and hearing Luke give his thoughts was something I was looking forward to. But nope, we don't get nice things. It was "The Force belongs to everyone. And, like, nobody's perfect, so nobody can be the perfect example ... or something." No in depth back-and-forth, breaking down Rey's fantasies versus the reality of what the Jedi really did. Nothing. Total weak sauce.
- Rey's vision quest. Boring shit (great visuals, but useless). "I'm mad at you because you didn't resist the Dark Side vision." Well, when she went exploring, it showed her an infinite mirror ... and that's it. No corruption, no dark temptations ... just a cool visual, and then she went back. No consequences at all, good or bad.

I could go on, but it just makes me more sad / pissed. Who made the decision to make Snoke completely useless and unimportant? The Emperor didn't have his own prequel movie, but he was clearly in charge from SW IV - VI, and he actually does mess with Luke quite a bit on the 2nd Death Star. There was actual tension, rather than "I'm genre savvy - he's going to get killed by Kylo Ren in the next 2 minutes". Finn (who was one of the main character in Force Awakens) is sent on a useless Side Quest (literally - they accomplish literally nothing, and are saved by a Deus ex Machina). Why? And yet another waste of Brianne of Tarth. That illogical and god-awful execution scene. I didn't buy that shit for 5 seconds.

Oh, one last thing to rant on. Finn's "Hero's Sacrifice" against the siege weapon. Great setup. I was beginning to actually believe they might sacrifice a main character in this movie. It would be one hell of a capstone for the character, saving the day by ramming into the siege weapon. The visuals were beautiful, the music was swelling ...... and then the lady with a crush crashes into him and prevents him from accomplishing the goddamn Mission. Because she wants to bone. They would all have been slaughtered if the Level 20 Wizard didn't astral project there to save the day. Stupid. Useless. WHO WROTE THIS?!?

I agree entirely with this assessment. It was a bigger disappointment than the prequels. Utter shit.

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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by Muskrat » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:19 pm

I can certainly see some of the problems you guys are pointing to. Yeah, the space battles didn't make much sense. But they've never made much sense in Star Wars. Rogue One featured battle ships designed to ram other star ships. But in a real space battle, even one fought in orbit around a planet, the ships would be too far apart for ramming to actually be an option.

Like I said above, Holdo's failure to explain her plan even after the mutiny is a big plot hole--and one they could easily have addressed by saying she was worried about traitors among the Resistance ranks.

So I suppose part of it is I place a different weight on the strengths and weaknesses of the film.

I think it may also be wanting or expecting something different from a Star Wars films. I enjoyed it that the film continually zigged when I thought it would zag and zagged when I thought it would zig. I like it that Po's plans were a colossal failure. I liked it that the film completely subverted my expectations of what a Star Wars film would do--but in a way that (at least to me) still felt like a Star Wars film.

I will agree with ManWithDoor that I would have liked to have heard a lot more of Luke's thoughts on the Force and would have liked to see his questioning of received Jedi dogma much more central to the film. As I mentioned in the first post, that's what I was expecting from the trailers. If they had gone in that direction and done it well, it could have been not just a good Star Wars film, but just a really good film period. But I like films, TV series, novels, etc. where there's something philosophical to sink my teeth into--mindless entertainment usually doesn't entertain me that much. But any rethinking of how the Force works probably would have been really controversial among the fans--probably far more controversial than The Last Jedi already is. And, if not done well, it could well have been a complete train wreck. They took the safer path and that might have been wiser--certainly from a business perspective, and maybe even from an artistic one.

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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by Shurijo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:57 pm

There's also the chance that in the next SW movie there will be more of Luke than originally planned.

My original idea (years ago) was that Han, Luke, and Leia would each die off in each of the 3 movies. I think Luke was scheduled to die in TLJ and Leia in next movie. Now with Fisher's death, they might have a bit more Jedi ghost time with Luke than originally scheduled. Jedi ghost Luke could get a bit philosophical in a scene or two, but SW isn't known for exposition of philosophy/ideas, it's mostly short quips and/or shooting/slicing, etc.

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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by Eilandor » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:42 pm

I think you guys are taking Star Wars way toooo serious.
Perhaps. Nothing will likely match the impact the original trilogy had on most of us that grew up with it. We're older and different now. However, I would ask that a company with all the money in the world start to hire some better filmmakers. In regards to Rogue One, they hire Gareth Edwards who's previous directing credit includes 2014 Godzilla, ugh. So what do we get? Another good looking movie with paper thin characters (perhaps due to quantity of characters) who we don't care about by the films finale. The relationship arc between Jyn and Cassian doesn't feel earned, it feels forced.

And for Christ sake, why would Saw just stand there and let the debris wash over him instead of stepping onto the escaping ship. That doesn't create and emotional moment, it's plain stupid.

Did I mention CGI Tarkin an Leia...
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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by TetNak » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:33 pm

Rogue One suffered from too many primary characters. Hard to get invested in Jyn or Cassian when they don't really have all that much time to develop in a 2.5 hour movie while there are 3-4 other primary characters shoved in your face that you have to process.

Also, I'm not taking Star Wars too seriously, I'm just saying it wasn't a good movie. If any movie did what the Last Jedi did, I'd think it was shit as well. Only thing is, I actually didn't just get up and leave because it was Star Wars. Once the whole Leia pulls herself back into the ship thing happened, in most other movies I'd change the channel with an eyeroll or just leave and go have a couple drinks until I had to go home.
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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by Muskrat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:29 am

I certainly agree that, after the prequel movies, Rogue One was the weakest of the Star Wars films, because of the abbreviated character arcs for Jyn and Cassian and the lack of them for all the other "major" characters. I also was disappointed that they ended Rogue One with a big space battle, of which Star Wars already has plenty. I think it would have been more interesting if we'd gotten something more akin to a Star Wars heist movie.

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Re: Star Wars: Last Jedi Spoiler Thread

Post by TetNak » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:33 pm

I think Rogue One is 20x better than the Last Jedi. I just want that to be known. :)
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