Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

[Brennor]

Yep, planning on moving the Game Openings and Interest thread after I'm done posting to games. I'll leave a link to the moved topic in the old place, so it is accessible from both locations.

[WinterRat1]

[edit]Brennor says: The following quoted paragraph no longer applies, since the other thread was merged with this one. Some messages may appear to be slightly out of order, discussion-wise, but that's because the two threads were merged...[edit]

I posted the following in the Status of the Site thread. Since I'm not sure if that was the wrong place for such a post, it is re-posted below for reading convenience. If either of these places is the wrong place to post this, please feel free to move it to the appropriate thread.

Hi All -

Not sure if you're still taking comments on this topic, but speaking as a new member trying to get involved here, I think a thread or post with some specific guidance/suggestions/opportunities for new members regarding how to become more a part of the community would be helpful.

First, let me clarify that none of this post is a complaint or criticism toward Brennor's or anyone on here. This is simply a compilation of some of my observations and experiences on this topic since I've arrived. My intention in sharing is for the benefit of the community, so please take only what you think is useful, discard the rest, and please remember none of this is intended to be negative in any way, shape, or form.

A New Member's Perspective

I joined about 3-4 weeks ago, and I'm still a bit 'in limbo' with respects to actually gaming with everyone here.

I've followed the advice I've received so far with respects to being present in the IRC chat, posting an introduction, trying to get involved with existing games, etc., but thus far my efforts have yet to bear significant fruit.

I'm currently awaiting a response from Tetnak regarding my character submission for his Beyond the Four Winds L5R game (obviously his surgery is a mitigating circumstance regarding his response time), and have contributed to that game's transition from 3E to 3ER, but beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed overall.

It's great chatting with everyone and getting to know people, but any game I'm interested in does not have an opening. Of course I could join an open game for the sake of joining and playing, but personally I don't join games I don't plan on being in for the long haul, and I think it's a disservice to my fellow GMs and players to participate in a game if I'm not just as passionate about it as they are. Since I don't want to overextend myself by joining games just because they're open, it's a bit difficult to build up any 'player credibility' when there aren't openings for games that I'm really interested in.

Furthermore, in my experience one of the best ways to get invited into other people's games is to run a quality one yourself, and build a reputation as the kind of gamer people want in their games, either as a player or GM.

However, the restriction on new members running games removes this option for me. Please note I do not disagree with this restriction, in fact I think it's a great idea, because it stops the board from being flooded with games run by people who have no stake in them or the site and thus last for 50 posts and then die.

Still, it puts people like myself in a quandary: I want to be involved, but I don't know how I can be more involved.

If there are no games with openings to play in, I can't develop relationships or reputation as a player.

If I can't develop relationships or reputation, then I can't move on to being a GM.

If I can't play or GM, then why stick around the site, especially if openings will occur more infrequently in a smaller and more intimate site like this one?

Logically, I'll check for a while, hope an opening pops up, and eventually move on, because while it's great talking with people via chat and having general conversations in the message boards, there's no point in joining a gaming forum if you aren't going to game.

Disclaimer

I want to be clear I am not personally planning on leaving Brennor's. I have enjoyed talking to the people here, I like the community and the way you all run things, and just from observing I think it's a great place to game. As mentioned above, I'm waiting on my submission to Tetnak and of course I completely understand the slow response time, no problems there.

An Experienced PbP Gamer's Thoughts

My purpose in sharing the above was to shed a little insight on to how prospective new members might feel while trying to become a part of the close-knit community Brennor's seems to be, not a criticism of the way things are. I love the closeness you all seem to have, and I have no problem taking my time working my way into the community. As a veteran of PbP forums I'm well aware of the importance of patience, perseverance, and the need to prove oneself in a new environment.

However, I have the advantage of experience in knowing how I want to represent myself, contribute to the community, and gradually work towards becoming a '˜member in good standing', if you will. Not everyone does though, and I think if I didn't have the previous PbP experience I did, I would have followed a thought process similar to the one I just outlined.

The Original Post: Recruitment and New Members

I think you guys have done a great job recruiting. I was recruited through Tetnak's announcement on the Alderac forums, and I've found everyone to be nothing but helpful, friendly, and welcoming here.

However, while recruitment of new members is a worthy goal, equally important is what to do with them when they get here. One issue seems to be the disconnect between recruitment of new members and the limited number of opportunities available for new members to help transition into becoming more permanent fixtures in the community.

I think Brennor's does a solid job of putting in a good series of checks and balances to ensure the games here are quality, and the limited number of openings is a not-entirely-unfortunate byproduct of that.

My understanding is Brennor's intends to '˜screen' its new applicants to a certain degree, and while it does a good job of that, as an earlier poster mentioned, that also means numbers will be down, because statistically, there are only so many good gamers looking for a new place to game. For the record, I don't see this as a problem, because I think one of this place's primary selling points is quality over quantity. Coming from Dumpshock Forums where the reverse was true (and to an extreme degree), it is a relief to see a place that has a certain standard it expects its players and GMs to live up to.

The Relevant Question

However, this philosophy of quality over quantity can lead to the scenario I outlined above. With such checks and balances in place, how does a new member go about proving their quality so they can become a consistent, contributing member of the community?

One Suggestion

Returning to my thesis, one specific suggestion I have is making an active effort to give new members more opportunities to get involved with (but not immediately playing in) currently existing games.

For example, as a long time GM, I know I always have various administrative projects that would make my game better, but I don't always have the time to handle them myself. I typically subcontract those projects to current players and bribe, er, compensate them with experience points.

My suggestion is to offer those opportunities to new players, especially ones who are interested in a game that is already full.

I know I've never had a game that was so full I wouldn't make room for a quality player if they were going to be an asset to my game, and in my experience most GMs feel the same way. This could be a more active way for GMs to screen potential applicants and benefit the game in the process.

How the new member handles the project can certainly give a GM a lot of insight into what they would be like as a player, allowing them to make a more informed decision about making an opening for them. If the new member strikes out or decides they aren't interested enough to try and prove themselves, well the project wasn't getting done anyway, so no harm there. And of course if the new member does a good enough job to convince the GM they're worth making an opening for, then the game has not only received a quality player, but that player has already benefited the game/group prior to their arrival. All in all, a win-win situation.

Specific Example

An example from my own experience was my arrival to Brennor's, wherein I offered to compile a comparison of 3E and 3ER for Tetnak's L5R game, complete with analysis, summary of changes, and a detailed breakdown of the pros/cons of changing over.

I don't know the extent to which my project persuaded Tetnak to consider me for his game. I am fairly certain it helped convince him to at least talk with me and evaluate me more seriously and in-depth than he might otherwise have. That or he just thought I had a cool handle. While I could be totally mistaken, I believe my willingness to contribute to the game without being a part of it yet was a good opportunity to '˜state my case' for why Tetnak should give me an opportunity to be a part of his game.

In fairness to all the currently existing games, I think that's the way it should be. I tend to treat applying for a new game as a job interview; I come from a school of thought that says if I want to join a game, it's incumbent upon me to '˜sell myself' and convince the group I would be an asset to the game and persuade them to want me to play with them. I don't see anything wrong with benefiting the game in the process of selling myself. After all, if I do a good enough job to get into the game, it benefits me too because now I'm in the game I just helped. In fact, what better way could there be to show one is serious about joining the game and has a lot to offer it?

The point is, there are all sorts of projects like the one I volunteered for that can benefit a game. In the above case, the group voted to switch to 3ER. From what I gathered in their comments, they were all somewhat interested in switching before I got here, but my project provided them with additional information to evaluate the change and helped push them towards actually discussing and making said change. Assuming I am accepted into the game, I now benefit both from being allowed into the game and the fact that my work has been incorporated into the game.

Concluding Thoughts

I'm sure every GM has a list of items they'd like to do but don't have time to handle personally. Taking the initiative to offer those items to new members could be a great opportunity to let the GMs get to know new members better (and vice versa) and provide a helpful segue way for new members to get involved in the community, while benefiting existing games in] the process.

Since new players tend to state the games they're interested in during their Introduction, this would be a great way to greet them. Rather than saying, '˜hey, welcome aboard, thanks for your interest, sorry but there's not really any openings right now' or something vague like '˜we have no openings but feel free to look around and maybe shoot the GM a PM if you're interested', we could offer them something more tangible and specific.

Saying '˜if you're interested in my L5R game, I've got a project you could help me with, and if you do a good job showing me you'd be a great addition to our game, I'd be willing to make an opening for you' gives new members a concrete opportunity to evaluate and consider.

If they choose not to take the opportunity that's perfectly fine, but at least they know they can choose to take the initiative and be involved, rather than just hang around aimlessly waiting for a chance that might never come.

Of course I don't suggest this be a requirement to joining a new game. But making it an option provides a specific direction for people to get involved with the community and games they are interested in. Putting the burden of involvement on new members rather than Brennor's allows new people to '˜earn' their way into games, rather than put the responsibility of guessing who is worth making a spot for in a full game on the already overworked GMs.

Either way, everyone wins; new members can take a more active and focused part in getting involved with the community and games they're interested in, GMs have a helpful tool to evaluate prospective players, the community has clear advice for people looking to become a part of it, and the games themselves benefit.

I hope I didn't overly bore any of you this post. I know it was long, detailed, and examined a variety of issues. As someone who's been reflecting on some of the questions raised in this thread myself, I just thought it might be useful to the discussion if you got some perspective from someone currently going through the process of trying to break into the community. I hope it helped, and if it was useless, well then, uh'¦moderators please feel free to delete it!

[Vardaen]

Thank for the post WinterRat, this is a good as place any to post it. We have been struggling with new players, and the number of games and room for characters. One thing we did to help this is to create the New Member Games down at the bottom of the forum. They are short little adventures, generally one on ones with the DM in a sort of pre generated situation that will allow a new member to hop right into a game. I didn't realize we lost you in limbo or else I would have suggested you join one of those New Member games to get you RPing. The DM restriction we set is because we've been burned badly in the past, new games started, players work hard to get characters ready and then the DM bails on us a few week later.

I appreciate the input from you, and wish we could find a way to have more high quality games, with more players, and no one would wait around to join things. Its tough. I know you mentioned most DMs you know haven't ever had no room left in a game, but personally I've found after 6 or 7 characters, the games become unwieldy and you loose something in trying to juggle all those characters (plus combat can take forever!).

I do like the idea of getting newbies to help out, for example I can always put well made NPCs to use (hint hint nudge nudge). For what its worth, were you interested in any of the games I'm running? If so send me a PM and we can talk (or get on the chat).

[TetNak]

WinterRat,

Sorry man, I feel bad. I'm sure your character is going to be fine, but I just haven't had time to do much of anything right now. Typically I'd already have you RPing.

Sorry again ...

Tet

[Nate]

personally I've found after 6 or 7 characters, the games become unwieldy and you loose something in trying to juggle all those characters (plus combat can take forever!).

I couldn't agree more with this part... (note I'm not trying to discount the input WR had, it was excellent, and far better than I could have written)

IRL I always prefer to play with 4 or 5, Here I've upped it to 6. Not that I don't want more players, but it can be hard to manage. And combat definitely can become cluttered, and take forever for each persons turn.

I'll also add that as a player, I want to feel like when I'm in a game a part of the story revolves around me. Not that I need to be the center of the universe, but I definitely like to feel useful. In games I've played where there are too many players, I always tend to feel like what I'm doing doesn't matter.

I think the biggest thing is trying to get more folks who have been around a while to run a game. Bottom line the more games available, the easier it is for people to find games.

As a side note since I suggested the new member games thread I should probably run a game in there...

[Brennor]

Wow, awesome post, WinterRat1!

I need to continue digesting that for a while before I get into deep responses, but wanted to answer a couple of your up front questions:

- We are ALWAYS taking suggestions for the site. We want this place to be the absolute best it can be and are always looking for the next great idea.

- We don't randomly delete posts here. The only posts that get deleted are spam messages in the forums (which haven't happened too frequently) and messages that are offensive to the majority of the site (which hasn't happened much at all).

Thank you for sharing your observations on the site and the community. Love hearing from new recruits to the site.

P.S. I'll get to responding to this message eventually, I need to think on some of the stuff a bit more and will probably only take small snippets to discuss at a time. That's definitely what we wanted this thread to become: a discussion.

[Nate]

I should add that I don't mean we should force folks to run games. That would obviously end up with some folks who don't have time, or don't enjoy the game they're running to likely end up with some sub-par or lackluster games.

[Brennor]

Ah, I hadn't seen this posted here too. I responded in the other location. Since people may be tracking in both places, I'm going to go edit WinterRat1's post in the other thread and link it to this thread. Discussion in both places is probably a good idea, since they cover slightly different aspects of improvements.

[Wayloss]

I think part of the solution, perhaps small would be to take a someone like myself, who doesn't have the time to run a full fledged game currently but has been capable and try and run some of the oneshot games. (I still actually want to run savage tide (and Maz), but dropping players and time killed it.

[Brennor]

- We don't randomly delete posts here. The only posts that get deleted are spam messages in the forums (which haven't happened too frequently) and messages that are offensive to the majority of the site (which hasn't happened much at all).

I should also add that we do delete duplicate posts, but that isn't quite the same category of deletes that was mentioned earlier in this thread, since we aren't really changing anything when deleting a duplicate.