Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by Brennor » Wed May 06, 2009 5:03 am

WinterRat1 wrote:Not sure if you're still taking comments on this topic, but speaking as a new member trying to get involved here, I think a thread or post with some specific guidance/suggestions/opportunities for new members regarding how to become more a part of the community would be helpful.
Oh, we're always taking suggestions to help out the site and make it a better place. Without any suggestions at all, what you see here before you today would not exist in anything close to this form.

Suggestions have definitely driven the evolution of this site. So please do not hesitate to offer any suggestions you have. The worst that'll happen is that they won't be implemented, but who knows which suggestion the next big idea will come from?
WinterRat1 wrote:Still, it puts people like myself in a quandary: I want to be involved, but I don't know how I can be more involved.

If there are no games with openings to play in, I can't develop relationships or reputation as a player.

If I can't develop relationships or reputation, then I can't move on to being a GM.

If I can't play or GM, then why stick around the site, especially if openings will occur more infrequently in a smaller and more intimate site like this one?

Logically, I'll check for a while, hope an opening pops up, and eventually move on, because while it's great talking with people via chat and having general conversations in the message boards, there's no point in joining a gaming forum if you aren't going to game.
Great questions, and definitely something that I, for one, haven't completely thought through. I still haven't thought through these entirely.

Honestly, I'm not sure that there is a way to be more involved when we won't let brand new people to the site automatically start to GM games, nor have any openings for games. This is one reason why the Learner Games were introduced, to have ready-to-run games all set to go for when a new person joins the site. I know a few of us have had time crunch issues in getting some of them built though. I've got a Shadowrun 4E one planned, but haven't had a chance to put pencil-to-paper for it yet (all that kind of time is taken up by prepping for BrenCrawl 09 right now).
WinterRat1 wrote:My understanding is Brennor's intends to '˜screen' its new applicants to a certain degree, and while it does a good job of that, as an earlier poster mentioned, that also means numbers will be down, because statistically, there are only so many good gamers looking for a new place to game. For the record, I don't see this as a problem, because I think one of this place's primary selling points is quality over quantity. Coming from Dumpshock Forums where the reverse was true (and to an extreme degree), it is a relief to see a place that has a certain standard it expects its players and GMs to live up to.
Your understanding is correct. We'd like our GMs to be here for a good, long time, and have any games that are going to be run have a solid future ahead of them. I know that part of the reason for this is that several of us have been burnt by PbP or PbeM games getting off the ground and then shutting down within a few weeks/months, with nothing really happening during them (I'm responsible for more than my own fair share of games crashing and burning too).
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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by Grimbold » Wed May 06, 2009 3:22 pm

Perhaps it is also possible to let new GMs run a short, one shot adventure in the New Member Games to show how their games look like?

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by Lawson » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:04 am

Grimbold wrote:Perhaps it is also possible to let new GMs run a short, one shot adventure in the New Member Games to show how their games look like?
I wouldn't even mind running a short scene or two while I'm waiting for the 1 month clock to run out. The game I'm going to pitch here (when I am allowed) is already made. I ran a modified version of the story (a cthulhu-esque zombie thriller) last summer as a chat series, so all of the pre-writing is done, all the maps and visuals are made, etc.

We could start with something simple: a band of zombie apocalypse survivors trying to get from one place to another in a town (I'd have to noodle out the details). A few short scenes. A few bloody battles (shotguns, crowbars, and zombies). We could be done in a month if everyone posted every other day or so.

Would that be allowed?

If not, I don't mind waiting. I've still got two more sessions on all four chat games to finish in the next three weeks. :D

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by TetNak » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:25 am

I wouldn't be adverse to it. We could put it in the New Player Games section, there is nothing to say that new players can't run temporary games there (if they are temp) or be moved to the normal games section after awhile. There would have to be rules for those games though, so players don't put a lot of time into their characters. The main problem we are trying to avoid is players quitting. I find most people who come here and see the way we run games are going to be ROLE players, not Rollplayers, so in my opinion the quality of players want to run games is typically good. If you want to run a few scenes I would give my vote to yes, but for something more in depth, I'd have to reserve my opinion until there was a chat about it (concerning how it would be done, etc).
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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by Lawson » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:55 am

TetNak wrote:There would have to be rules for those games though, so players don't put a lot of time into their characters.
That's an easy fix. I've got some nifty pre-gens that I made for a post-apocalyptic PbP I did last year (we finished it up at about 8 months and 2000 IC posts with a total massacre--it was a blast). With a little adaptation they should work for what I have in mind.

No extra rules necessary. ;)

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by TetNak » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:01 am

The only problem is if and when it gets moved to a more permanent game. I'm sure you, and the players, probably want a bit more input in their characters.
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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by WinterRat1 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:32 am

Opening Thoughts

Perhaps one solution is to say that potential players only made their characters with statistics, and a paragraph or two of concept.

If Lawson's game involved a more detailed rules system, players could give input on what they want their PCs to be like and let him generate the statistics.

Then, when the temp game starts, use an 'in media res' (in the middle of the action) approach.

Drop the PCs right into the action and let them play out the scene. Even the fastest PbP game will take time to make it through an action scene, which typically involves lots of dice rolling regardless of system.

After the smoke has cleared and the dust has settled on that scene (and the real life probationary period passed), then everyone can worry about what their characters are like.

The same goes for any genre. It's a time honored movie classic to start the movie in the middle of the action, without the audience knowing which characters are important (or anything about them), until after the scene is over and you see who is still getting a lot of screen time.

Example

By way of example, do I really care what the hispanic dude next to me is like when zombies are crashing through the windows? If he's swinging a crowbar and keeping them off me, I could care less about who he is, all I care about at the moment is what he's doing.

Am I thinking about the personality of that screaming top-heavy blonde with the shotgun who's getting swarmed by zombies? Of course not. I'm more concerned about how to stop one of ours from going down and being replaced by one of theirs. And making sure that shotgun isn't lost beneath a pile of zombies, of course.

After we're safe, and we have a chance to catch our breath, then I'll start caring about who I'm dealing with and get to know them better. That's when the real get-to-know-you starts happening, not while we're fighting for our lives against hordes of zombies.

Possible Procedure

In practical terms, what this means is the GM tosses up a basic outline of the game, players toss out a paragraph or two of concept and stats (or let the GM make up stats for them or use pre-gens, whatever), and everyone starts playing, with the game starting right in the middle of the action.

Once the action scene is over and everyone has a chance to catch his or her breath and the getting to know one another starts, pause the game.

If it's been successful and the decision is made to move the game to a more permanent status, everyone can then break to make their PCs for real. Once the PCs are made for real, they can all jump back into the game and continue where they left off.

In this type of game, I suggest an understanding between GM and players that the initial concepts not be set in stone, and considerable flexibility allowed when re-making the characters '˜for real'.

There are plenty of explanations for this, most reasonable being the PCs may have performed above or below their normal capabilities due to the adrenaline of the moment, and from that point on regressed to the mean (i.e. returned to their normal capabilities and their level). Unless players have a total change of heart (e.g. they started as a fighter but decide they want to play a mage instead), you'll probably end up with final versions of PCs that fairly closely resemble their '˜basic concept' form.

For example, if I decide to play a tough talking, grizzled ex-cop, it's unlikely I'm going to suddenly decide what I wanted all along was a nerdy, weak, cowardly drug addict. Much more likely is I tweak my cop. Maybe instead of points in shotguns I want points in handguns, or something like that. We write off the fact that I used a shotgun in the opening scene to expediency and '˜being in the moment', and explain my future preference for handguns as me returning to my normal self.

Advantages and Disadvantages

Beyond the previously stated advantages of allowing new GMs a place to show what they've got and new players a chance to jump into a game (and show us what they've got as well), one major advantage of this approach is expediency.

There have been discussions about how to get new people involved in games quicker without compromising quality, and this is one way. After all, these games are designed to be very short and brief, so if they fail, no big deal. On the flip side, if they survive and '˜graduate' to permanent status, then we've got another promising game on the horizon.

Additionally, a game that starts in the middle of the action could be helpful to people learning the system. They can play a little and get a feel for the GM, the system, what they like and don't like about their PCs, and then after they have a better handle on things they are explicitly allowed to re-create their PC based on the new perspective they have.

I know for myself, sometimes in new games I am not really sure what I want in a character. Actually playing gives me an opportunity to get a better feel for them, which in turn helps me make a better PC than if I spent a lot of time planning the PC before playing. Sometimes nothing trumps simple experience and exposure.

A disadvantage of this is we could end up with an upswing in '˜temporary games', which could be an administrative problem.

Another disadvantage is if people don't know the purpose of these temp games, they may have a wrong perception of the site as one that emphasizes quantity over quality, and not realize we have many long running and quality games on the site.

Attrition will probably be very high among these temp games, and I would not expect many to graduate to permanent status, which may or may not create an image and '˜feel' of Brennor's that is desired.

Conclusion

Anyway, these were some quick thoughts I just whipped out, since Tet put up a comment about wondering how such a thing would work. The above of course is just one possible suggestion, and frankly not a super-well thought out one at that. Just something I slapped together to keep the discussion moving, since I think it's an idea that bears at least a decent look at. Curious to see what everyone else thinks!

Edit: Perhaps instead of thinking of these games as 'temporary games', we should recast them as 'short stories'.

Temporary gives a sense of instability and low growth potential, which in turn minimizes the incentive for personal investment.

Short stories give a sense that while the game is deliberately designed to be brief, it has high growth potential, in the form of sequels. This encourages investment because if players are really interested in the sequel (i.e. graduating the game to permanent status), they should play in a way that encourages that administrative outcome.

This distinction and subsequent connotations may help fight attrition by encouraging people not to think of the game as a 'one-shot' or 'throwaway', but rather as a 'sneak preview' or 'extended trailer' that makes them excited to see the 'final product'.

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by Lawson » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:59 am

That's kinda what I was thinking (if I read you right). When the game becomes "official," those who want can make their own character and keep the XP they earned using the pre-gen. Those who don't want can make any minor adjustments to the sheets they like.

I'm not picky. ;)

But like I said, if it's going to be a hassle, no biggie. I've got plenty to do for the next month. I can stop in here a few times a weeks, make a few posts, and then start the game next month when it will be official. Either way . . .

[Edit] I found one of the ooooooooold sheets from a zombie game I did two years ago (using Cthulhu d20 rules).

Image

Good times. :D

Something like that for the quickie game?

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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by TetNak » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:09 am

That's definitely a cool profile. However, we typically actually require someone to /play/ in a game for a month, just not be around the site every once in a while.
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Re: Suggestions to make Brennor's RPG Corner better

Post by WinterRat1 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:17 am

Hmm...Tetnak just raised a point I didn't adequately consider in my earlier post above. Doh! Sorry for failing to take that into account.

I do have a question, but first a disclaimer that my question is NOT intended to question Tetnak's authority, moderator authority, or site policy. It is solely to gain clarification and additional information.
Tetnak wrote:We could put it in the New Player Games section, there is nothing to say that new players can't run temporary games there (if they are temp) or be moved to the normal games section after awhile.
In the above statement, should 'new players' be interpreted to mean:

1. 'new players who have been playing in a game on the site for a month'

-OR-

2. 'new players who are new to the site entirely'

I went with interpretation 2 in my earlier post, but it seems that interpretation 1 is the correct one.

If that is the case, it does raise an interesting question of what to do with people are more interested in GMing a game than playing in one.

That is an issue of moderator policy, so I don't feel I have the credentials to comment on it; I would put forth the thought that it seems to be an issue that's worth examining.

I know it has been examined extensively in the past, and I completely support current policy. However, if there is going to be further discussion on the role of the 'learner games' and how they can be used to integrate new players, then I believe examining any ways 'learner games' could also be used to integrate new GMs is a separate issue from current policy.

The reason behind my belief is to the best of my admittedly limited knowledge, Tetnak's comment has put forth a way of looking at Learner Games that did not previously exist. Hence, it is unlikely Learner Games have previously been looked at as a method of integrating new GMs, which is why I feel for me to suggest an examination of that possibility is not challenging current policy, but putting forth the suggestion of examining an extension of current policy, or a new area of policy not previously defined.

My comments are not intended to be defiant, rebellious, or in any way negative towards current moderator policy. They are solely to stimulate further discussion points based upon thoughts that have arisen in the course of this conversation.

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