The Society of Philosophers

For the game development and OOC threads.
Post Reply
Taliesin
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 30

The Society of Philosophers

Post by Taliesin » Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:23 pm

On Durnalia:

"...I need to have a means for them to become so powerful that they would become an empire. Relative technology perhaps, combined with
magic...." (Josh Gross, 10/27/04)

As it happens, I'd been having some thoughts around this matter since I first scanned the Res Telluris baseline posts. Clearly, there's some magic in the setting, but how and where does it fit in the fabric of this society? Briefly then, I donned my laurel thinking cap and put myself in a late-Classical frame of mind.

What I came up with is Philosophy.

As we know, Philosophy is literally "the love of wisdom". In the context of our own world that's come to mean deep thoughts and often-pointless discourse on the meaning of life, but in a setting like this one, "wisdom" could mean a different thing entirely.

A Brotherhood, League or Society of Philosophers (I'm partial to the third) could be an order into which we could incorporate many aspects of the mystery cults and secret societies that so captured the imagination of both Classical and Romantic society, respectively. Their "wisdom" could encompass both science and more... arcane... study.

I'd envision these Philosophers as an assortment of unusual figures, ranging from respected academics and artisans to eccentric researchers and darker, more sinister types about whom the whispers of sorcery and enchantments quietly circulate. One would find them at the heart of many great moments in Durnalian history, both for good and for evil, but always on the side of the Empire-- often in the shadows-- and typically moving behind the scenes.

There's a lot of potential here. It could be that a pattern has developed throughout Durnalian history-- barely discernible, and only then to those who dedicate their lives to the study of it-- whereby the Philosophers (or one of several internal sects within that order, whose very existence is but a matter of speculation to outsiders) have continually steered Durnalia towards Empire. But why? To what end?

Could it be... Evil?

And might it be that other Philosophers never imagined that their works of learning and glory could be (or were) used to subjugate other peoples? Perhaps the Empire was home to an entire class of great minds who were so blinded by the glory of their accomplishments that they never realized (or cared) to what end those glories were used?

And what of those who did realize what they were doing?

And whatever do they make of the Grey Tower, anyway?

And where'd they put the formula for Ready-Mix Concrete?

Just some food for thought.... Please feel free to develop it as it suits you, everyone. There's a couple ideas I'm going to run with myself, but this isn't one of them. It's here for group development.

Rich

Taliesin
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 30

Part II

Post by Taliesin » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:54 pm

The following are Josh's replies to my original post. I had sent it to him over the weekend due to the site being down, so our dialogue occurred offline at first. Emphasis is his original.

Rich,

Awesome idea about the philosophers' society, with renegades and heroes, etc. Let's run with that. An excellent alternative to wizards and sorcerors running amok.

<snip on admin-related stuff>

And why Empire? Because the Durnalians simply became enamored with
power. Not necessarily evil, but I think it should have become so for an extended period of time in history.

Josh

Taliesin
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 30

To which I replied...

Post by Taliesin » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:55 pm

Cool, cool. Thanks. The question about 'why empire' was more a rhetorical thing than anything else-- I was wondering if, perhaps behind that fascination with power, there was a shadowy force manipulating them to conquer, conquer, conquer (think Sauron in Numenor)?

Taliesin
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 30

...and Palamon answered...

Post by Taliesin » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:57 pm

Another email comment from JG in reply to my last...

Regarding the shadowy force you mentioned, I do think that is a good idea. Demonic forces are always good to have around. Better when they're subversive than overt, of course. Perhaps some sort of Emperor on down the line who has significant 'Dark Side' powers and lived WAY beyond human life expectancy, and under whom the Empire became the most imperial. I've been thinking that at first the Empire was a 'good' thing, where they go around "helping" others become more civilized (and being hated for it in some places, naturally). And eventually under this Ar-Pharazon type, they become true conquerors. This particular person's power would lead to the downfall of the Empire as such, as the armies become overstretched just like as Rome fell.

As the Empire fell, however, the fall was not complete. A coup occurred within the capital, and the Emperor was slain. And thus began the current era.

I think the more ambiguous the powers of 'magic' and the 'gods' are, the better. The Philosophers' Society within Durnalia (btw, I think that the Philosophers should be, or at least originated as, a strictly Durnalian sect - other cultures have their own sages / wise men / etc whose powers are derivative of their own "philosophy")

Palamon
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 49

Post by Palamon » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:39 pm

hmm, forgot to finish my thought there.

The Philosophers' Society needs a name, I think. Also, they should have no direct ties to the religion of the land, no more than Plato was a priest. The two should be separate.

A few questions arise regarding this society: first, what is their origin? Second, what is their creed and how did it develop? Third, what is their role in today's society?

A secondary train of thought begins as well: education in Durnalia. I would say that the society is fairly well-read, meaning at least a 50% literacy rate. Who teaches people to read? Who maintains historical documents, and who teaches it to students? What subjects are taught? Perhaps this should start another thread, but I have to head to work right now until about 6 or so.

Some good news: in about 2 days, my schedule will change DRAMATICALLY. From working my ass off for 10+ hours a day to hardly working at all.... because I'm almost done with Primary, baby!!!!!! Here's hoping my grades were good enough to get jets. Well, gotta go. Keep the good ideas coming.

Dins
Level 0
Level 0
Posts: 3

Post by Dins » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:52 pm

I'm no master of Roman history, but thinking through the European that I recall, it seems to me that the people with high levels of literacy then and there were monks and priests. That, of course, resulted in many writings both historical and religious -- and often more religious than historical, no?

I think it would be interesting to see what happened if you had two competing educational forces -- it might be interesting to see what happened if this society of philosophers was in competition with the mainstream religion to see who could educate the most people. There has always been tension between religion and philosophy (I think of the first few scenes of the Republic even, and the discussion of piety), and that could be a fascinating way to express it.

Just a thought.

Taliesin
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 30

Post by Taliesin » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:42 pm

Hmmm... is the Society of Philosophers then at odds with the Durnalian Church? Is this expressed in a set of competing literary traditions? I like these questions but I'm not the guy to answer them.

One of you have any interest in working on this further?
Rich


Palamon
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 49

Post by Palamon » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:09 pm

I am interested in pursuing this further, but in context with the history I'm trying to pursue. In other words, there will be times in history when the two are not at odds, and others when they are. The Philosophers' Society is not a religious society by any stretch of the imagination, at least not politically so. Their aims may be to determine the nature of the Gods, and of the world, and of humanity, etc. but I would argue that they are an agnostic group, not claiming to have specific knowledge of the Gods, unlike the Durnalian Church. At its most pure, the Society is not politically motivated; at its most pure, neither is the Durnalian Church. But, I intend to have the Church be a political force of significant authority and power in Durnalia. Are the two at odds? I would say yes, over some things, and no over others. I haven't really thought all of this through yet.

Neon
Level 0
Level 0
Posts: 4

Post by Neon » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:33 pm

Here are some thoughts to add to the thinking already on the table:

I think we need to give these guys a broad mission statement somewhere along the lines that Palamon has already suggested. Broad enough that within the society there can be 4 or 5 different "Schools" of thought who have somewhat different takes on how to go about achieving the society's objectives. In flavor, these might find some inspiration in the different "houses" with which JK ROwling has populated Hogwarts: All are devoted to broadening theoretical and practical knowledge of the universe and using it for the 'betterment' of human kind. That opens the door for some to seek mystical, or dark, or even dangerous knowledge with which to foment their own peculiar vision of humanity's ultimate destiny.

It might make sense to have the origin of the Philosophers' Society in the "Babylon" analog - Perhaps they became interested in Durnalia after the destruction of the "Carthage" analog, seeing that Durnalia was likely to become the most powerful military/political force on earth.

Regarding their relationship to the Durnalian Church, we might have them presenting the public image as a group dedicated to discovery of "How" the universe operates as it does. This would allow them to, at least as far as their public role goes, to cede to the Church the realm of explaining to the faithful "Why" the universe is as it is and what humanity's purpose is and things of that sort. This would sort of parallel Aquinas's view of the difference/compatibility of Reason and Faith.

Palamon
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 49

Re: The Society of Philosophers

Post by Palamon » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:35 am

Hey guys. Read the stuff on RANDOM HISTORY CHATTER I wrote on Ashkar before posting more here. PLEASE let me know what you think. Obviously, I'm rather fond of it. :) But if there are inconsistencies or non sequiturs, please please let me know now before we move on.

Post Reply